Interview: The Twilight Sad on "It's The Long Goodbye"

I’ve just got back from OFF Festival in Poland, where you played a fantastic show back in 2012. Do you remember that gig?

I remember that we soundchecked in a big massive tent. And I was like, Oh I don’t think anybody going to be here. But when we came back after a short break, the tent was full. It was just a total surprise to us. It was one of my favourite gigs that we've ever played, just because the crowd were there and they were amazing. The band wasn't having a good time at that point. That was a well-needed confidence boost.

A lot has changed in the band since then. When you announced It’s the Long Goodbye, you also revealed that the other members had left and that you and Andy MacFarlane would continue as a duo. Did that come as a surprise to you, or did it feel like a natural progression?

Andy and I have always worked that way. We don't write together in the same room or anything. Andy lives in London, and I live up in the north-east of Scotland. We send ideas back and forth together. I actually find the solitude in writing much better for me because I can make mistakes. And sometimes the mistakes can actually turn into the best thing. Sometimes when you're in the room with somebody, you're afraid to make those mistakes. We give each other the headspace to be able to go away and come together again once we have the ideas.

For me, the writing for this was over a long period of time as well. And to be honest, I never really knew if this would be a record or if we would be a band again or anything like that. It came to a point where I was well enough again to say, Let’s give this a go. 

While making this album, you lost your mother, to whom the record is dedicated, and welcomed your son into the world. How did those two profound experiences - losing a parent and becoming one yourself - shape you and the songs?

In 2016, my mother was diagnosed with dementia. Soon after her diagnosis, the decline started and she couldn't speak anymore. Then I became a father, the band released their fifth record and we toured it. We got to play some amazing shows. And then the pandemic hit. We also lost some important people to us around that time.

Anybody that's been through loss that way knows it's an extremely cruel way to leave this earth. Not just for the person, but for everybody around them as well. I just wrote about the feelings that I had at the time of losing her, when she was still here. And even though she was still here, it felt like you lost a little part of her every day. So the grieving process actually began before she passed away. 

And everything kind of came to a head maybe about three or four months before she passed away. My mental health wasn't good. And I had a pretty serious breakdown where I had to cancel some big tours with The Cure in South America, which I would never have cancelled without a serious reason.

Seeing the people we love fall ill or pass away can become an increasingly painful part of life. Who or what helped you get through that time?

My sons. I had to get up every day and be a father. No matter what was happening in the world. No matter what was happening in my brain. I had a responsibility to be a father to two boys. 

Also, this record helped me get a lot of feelings that were stuck inside out. It has been a weird form of therapy. With all the interviews that I've done, I've found that speaking about it has really helped me. And I know that it's not what everybody wants to speak about in an interview. But it's important. It's life. This is my version of grief and death and loss.

Also, Andy’s my best friend, so he knew everything that I was going through. Andy and my mom had a great relationship. My mom used to run us to practices. She used to do the merchandise for the band when people would order online. She was passionate about doing it. I only found out a week after she’d stopped doing it that she would send little personal notes to people, saying thank you and stuff like that.

For the new record, you brought together a bit of a Scottish dream team in the studio, with David Jeans from Arab Strap on drums and Alex Mackay, who tours with Mogwai, on bass. How did they become involved, and what was it like working with them?

I've known Alex for a while. He actually filled in for Andy when he was ill at one gig. He was just such an easy person to work with and so talented as well. And then Aidan from Arab Strap is one of my really good friends. I've watched Arab Strap loads of times. We asked Aidan if he thought David would be interested. And he was. 

I've never met anybody as obsessed with drums as David. He has, like, 300 vintage kits. He says he sometimes goes into his room where all his drums are and just sits and looks at them because it makes him happy. I was like, Man, you love drumming. So we got into a rehearsal studio once we knew the demos were all done.

I don't really enjoy recording, if I'm being honest. I find it quite monotonous. How many times can you hear a snare drum? But this time I came down to London and I really sat back and watched everybody work. It was actually one of my favourite things: watching people who I think are at the top of their game and who were really passionate about this music.

Robert Smith also appears on three tracks on It’s the Long Goodbye. You’ve been close for years, and The Twilight Sad have supported the Cure on many occasions. How involved was he in making this record?

Even on the last record we involved Robert from an early stage and sent him demos. He would write back with his ideas and thoughts on things. We would always go and try them out. Instead of simply saying, You should be doing that, he made us go away, learn what he was talking about and kind of fully understand it.

And nine times out of 10, of course, it worked. Maybe even 10 times out of 10. To have one of the best songwriters of all time at the end of a phone or an email to talk about your songs - that's unbelievable. And he was just, like the other two guys - he just cares. I think he is our biggest fan. What he's done for this band is unbelievable.

Honestly, I don't think we'd be a band without Mogwai. I don't think this record or the last record would have happened if it wasn't for Robert. 

Especially since The Cure’s latest album Songs Of A Lost World also deals with grief and loss. Did hearing those songs before the album came out influence the direction you took?

We were the support band on The Cure’s tour before Songs of a Lost World even came out. I watched every soundcheck and every gig at which they played songs from it. It was really affecting to see someone like Robert Smith talking about grief, loss and love. I knew I was going through something similar. So, without a doubt, that record totally inspired where I had to go.

You recorded the new album at Battery Studios in London, where The Cure recorded some of their early albums. Did you know that connection when you first walked into the studio?

I didn’t until I got down there, and then Andy was like, You’ll never guess what. And we were the last people to use that desk in that studio. I think it was shipped to America the day after we finished. It’s the desk that Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols was recorded on. And there was a lot of history in that room as well, with bands like Depeche Mode.

The studio had previously belonged to Alan Wilder and Flood, who filled it with all sorts of interesting gear. Did you get a chance to use any of it?

There was a synthesiser that nobody used because even the people who worked at the studio thought it was broken. And it kind of was, but Alex from Mogwai saw that as a challenge and started working on it. That synthesiser was used on Violator, if I remember correctly. He got it working, and it’s on Waiting for the Phone Call. So we’ve got a synthesiser from Violator on our record.

Your new album is a brilliantly crafted blend of shoegaze and 1980s electronic sounds. That combination comes through particularly strongly on great tracks like Inhospitable/Hospital. Why hasn’t this song been released as a single yet? 

I think we were talking about that at the time. I remember when we were discussing what should come out first, I said, I don’t care what happens after this, but Waiting for the Phone Call has to be the first song we put out. And then I kind of left it to the radio plugger. 

I was surprised that that wasn’t chosen, because it’s quite hooky, it’s got the synthesisers on it, and it’s maybe a bit of light relief amongst all the noisy guitars and the darkness. It’s one of my favourite songs on the whole record, and I think it plays an important part in it.

What really defines the new album, though, is its massive walls of guitars. Was that intensity already there in the demos Andy was sending you? 

The first demos that he sent me for this record were noisy, they were energetic, they were right. Instantly, I thought, This is going to be really good live. It’s a very heavy record. I really do feel like it’s the best thing we’ve made.

The lyrics are remarkable too - brutally honest and direct, like Back to Fourteen you sing Mother, may I? Mother, may I lay down and cry?. You really didn’t hold back.

When the music came to me, and when I had the chance to go and work on it, it just came out. For example, the song Waiting for the Phone Call was written in an hour. I got the music from Andy, I put my headphones on, and I went for a walk in my little village. I went up into the fields. By the time I got back, I'd recorded pretty much all my voice notes.

So despite everything you were going through, did the creative side of making the album still come naturally to you?

To be honest the easiest part of this whole process is the creative part. It's the bit that I still love. I just feel like after everything, my head is full of ideas for songs and things.

Every other aspect of the band is much tougher and much harder these days. I love playing live and I love singing, but everything else to do with the music industry, being in band and stuff, I fucking hate it. I love the things that you're meant to love about it. And then all the rest of the bullshit is bullshit. 

I feel the same. I loved it when I could just go to the show, watch it and write a review the next day. But right now you have to make reels before, during and after the show. Pour all your emotions into the content, and by the end there’s nothing left. 

It sucks the life out of it. It's not creative for me. I love simpler things. I love being a mate in a way that you and I have been able to have this conversation. It’s getting tougher. 

Also, everything is much more expensive now. The tour that we just did around Europe, I don't even know if it broke even. I hope that when I say stuff like that, it shows that I knew what I was getting into, but I still went out and did it because I knew that it was important. I don't want to be big, rich and famous; I just want to exist. I want to be able to continue to make records. 

I visited Dublin this year, and as soon as I arrived at the airport, I was greeted by huge photographs of Ireland’s most important bands. Ireland has also approved a basic income scheme for some artists. It’s clear that the state supports culture and music there. What does that support look like in Scotland?

There’s the Scottish Arts Council, which has helped us in the past. They helped us make the record, actually, to be honest. They helped with some of the funding for that. But the UK government? They couldn’t give a fuck. Art just doesn’t seem to be a priority.

I think if you put some money into grassroots music and create a pathway to help young bands, then they’re only going to go out there and become popular, and the government can make tax money off that. So I don’t really understand. I feel that art doesn’t seem to be as important as other things that the government spends money on.

But when I think of Scotland, I also think of the bands that have become some of the country’s greatest musical exports: Mogwai, Belle and Sebastian, Travis - and The Twilight Sad too. 

Without Mogwai, we wouldn’t be a band, to be honest. They have supported us. I worked for Mogwai’s record label when things were tough for me. Actually, years ago, I started working for Rock Action Records. I will say that there was always a good community of artists who wanted to help each other. 

Community will always win.